Phase 2 of DKP Planning

[taelus]

Ok, after a lot of thought and feedback from the guild over the past 2 weeks, I have reached the basic options which, as a leader, I would be prepared to implement upon the guild come TBC raids.

1. Modified DKP as per the last topics explanation.
-Gives DKP for on-time, bosses, and RP support. Numbers are static so that a full run is worth the same every time.
-Blind bidding system

2. Free Roll in Karazan, with Zero Sum for 25-mans.
-The fairest DKP system when taking luck and all that into account.
-Most simple bidding system. Fixed prices, person with highest DKP buys it out.
-Most staggering. Buying an item can knock you below the top for weeks, thus allowing others to get their loot.

3. Zero Sum for 25-mans, separate Zero Sum for Karazan.
-Alot more complicated and harder for members to understand.
-Fairest way to ensure the active members get the loot however.
-Becomes redundent at higher tier, as members who no longer need tier 4 will find little use for Karazan DKP, thus making the system harder to manage as in the end many will top.

Allowing Karazan to be on the same table as 25-mans with Zero Sum would break it in my opinion, as its just too vast a difference in DKP reward between the two. [As the DKP is shared between members present.]

Of course I am still open to suggestion and feedback, of course currently nothing is certain, its still in the development stage.

Post with prefered option, then further comments please.

[Gizmo]

I really like the idea of rewarding RP (though IW wouldn't benefit as much from that ) and punctuality, but the simplicity of a zero-sum system outweighs any benefit from getting extra dkp. I remember all the bitching over DKP that TRC had in the short time I was there, so the simpler our system is, the happier I'll be.

I agree that Karazhan should be treated seperately and as I just wrote, simplicity is what I'd be aiming for. Maybe using the same system we use for ZG now? It's hard to say without getting in there and seeing exactly how much loot drops.

Anyway, with simplicity in mind, I'm putting my support behind Option 2. Assuming that half our guilds don't reroll away from under us xD

[dinendal]

I'd go for option 2 as well, but I'm very much likeing Gizmo's "go zg style" suggestion for Kara. Sounds fair and logical.

[nj00s]

-Most simple bidding system.

If your members can learn one Zero-sum system, they can learn another thats nearly exactly the same

-Becomes redundent at higher tier, as members who no longer need tier 4 will find little use for Karazan DKP, thus making the system harder to manage as in the end many will top.

Here you can simply just quit using the DKP system there, and go over to the Free roll system. Like many guilds have done with ZG and MC when they where done with that


What I would reccomend though is a simple system. For example: spending 1 hour in a farm status instance (easy instance) gives you 1dkp.
Spending 1 hour wiping in a instance the guild is currently struggling on (=wiping the whole night on one boss), gives you 1.5 DKP.
The rest of the system is like a normal zero-sum (except the fact that the sum isnt zero )...you set up a set price for all items, and the one with the highest DKP wins and pays that set price for that item.

Good thing with this system is that you can award ppl for other things then just spending time in an instance....you give extra dkp for a first boss kill, or a first one-night clean of an instance, or wing...ooor you can award dkp for some RP stuff
(and it makes those dreadful wipenights look more attractive

Another thing i would like to add, is that we dont really know how the drops work in TBC until it has been released and played a while (yes i know there is alot of info around), so getting all to settled in with a DKP system now may not be a good idea...but getting a discussion on it as soon as possible is very wise

[Gizmo]

Only trouble with awarding extra DKP for random things is that people WILL either start begging for, or expect to earn DKP for every little thing they do.

"I escorted your alt through Mara, DKP plx?"
"I just RP'd with you in SW. DKP?"
"Sure, I can enchant your weapon. How much DKP is it worth?"

Assuming that gets dealt with and extra DKP is awarded for non-raid things without people fishing for it, people that weren't online at the time are going to be wondering where all these extra points came from and if they were justified. How long before the first person gets in a strop because someone has 10 points more than they had the last raid but nobody seems to know why?


Another thing to think about, whichever system is eventually chosen, is deciding how DKP is going to be recorded. Do Tae and Tarim keep notes on a piece of paper? If so, what happens if they're both offline and IW decide to lead a raid? Will the rest of us be able to find out our DKP without asking an officer? Should we be able to?

[Tarim]

I eat papers !

No seriously Giz, I think Amelia was going for an online site or database that like in TRC shows people their current DKP and will be updated after a raid. RP events is a good point and I guess we will only award for major events, and if people start their own events and let an officer know about so it can be put on the forums, GMOTD and various other places (IW forum, by the way change the poll and add the option "Level my character with my friends in ToA and IW" I have nothing to vote on)

Its still not live and stuff will chance as we think about it and get your responses about it. So replies with usefull stuffsis in them please !

[Flimtwizzle the Black]

Though in an ideal world I'd like option three, it's not really a good idea since people will just stop doing Karazhan as soon as they have their lewtz. So I'm all for option two, assuming there'll be some rules about who gets what (i.e. +dam goes to mages and locks before pallies, DPS weapons go to DPS classes first, etcetera). but I have faith you people won't mess that up.

[arckan]

I support option 3 the most.

Free rolling in raid instances is just wrong. I can go to a raid for 20 runs and never win anything while "Pete" can come on one raid and outroll me on the item I want in a single run.

I also think a ghost player or point bank will be useful. This bank will also get a share of the DKP when an item is bought. It will stack up on DKP and than on special occasions you can split that DKP out again over members that attend RP meetings or spent a lot of time killing a hard boss and still keep the sum of all points at zero.

[Tarim]

flimtwizzle said:

Though in an ideal world I'd like option three, it's not really a good idea since people will just stop doing Karazhan as soon as they have their lewtz. So I'm all for option two, assuming there'll be some rules about who gets what (i.e. +dam goes to mages and locks before pallies, DPS weapons go to DPS classes first, etcetera). but I have faith you people won't mess that up.

We could set the same rules for ZG in Karazan, Stuff thats clearly mage loot will only have mages rolling on it, others who roll (for example a warrior) and out roll the highest mage roll are not valid and thus said mage will get the item. Its up to the people in Karazan to decide who the drop is meant for, and if you dont seem to agree you can always call in an officer or council member and take their view on things.

[taelus]

Karazan isnt so simple though Tarim

There are tokens that literally say: "Classes: Hunter, Mage, Paladin, Rogue" for example...

[dara]

Another thing i would like to add, is that we dont really know how the drops work in TBC until it has been released and played a while (yes i know there is alot of info around), so getting all to settled in with a DKP system now may not be a good idea...but getting a discussion on it as soon as possible is very wise

Njoos hit's it right on here, so here's few thoughts

I would also say option 3 is the way to go. Afterall, Karazhan gear is what you want to wear in more difficult instances. Distributing it with dkp ensures your regulars will gear up slightly better than the random Pete's. Regulars are also the people who use the gear most for the advantage of raiding community.

Also, awarding dkp introduces competition for raidspots. This in turn makes people want to gear up outside raids to perform as well they can to justify them taking the raidspot.

Allowing Karazan to be on the same table as 25-mans with Zero Sum would break it in my opinion, as its just too vast a difference in DKP reward between the two. [As the DKP is shared between members present.]

I would even consider making the lowest tier dkp-pool shared with Karazan and other t4-dropping 25-mans. Perhaps you can adjust it so that the 25-mans award significantly more dkp(so those not getting Kara spots will not be penalized that much).

Another alternative is to introduce as standby system. That means those who didn't get the spot will be staying online, fully prepared and able to join the raid, will get the same dkp as the one's in raid. Raidspots can then be given on basis of "dkp earned while in raid" / "total dkp earned" ratio. I'm not completely sure of this system, but I know some naxx guilds used it with success.

-Becomes redundent at higher tier, as members who no longer need tier 4 will find little use for Karazan DKP, thus making the system harder to manage as in the end many will top.

Aye, but you might be able to drag parts of the guild past Karazhan loot directly into 25-mans(unless Karazan was needed for attunements). If not, then it's just matter of taking the time and gearing up the newer members of the raidcommunity.

I'm sure you can find some forum where exact same issue is discussed. However, I would suggest making t5 instances have their own system. Perhaps not include Karazan into their dkp pool, but the other t4 25-mans where you still need the people.

Then again all decisions like these should reflect the strategy and vision of the guild. DKP is a tool that takes advantage of epix-hunger to push the guild towards progression. As an example in a progression oriented guild it's perfectly fine to award people farming consumables for the guids use. Unless having them is a requirement for raidinvitation.

It's a common myth that dkp is a fair way of distributing loot. It might be objective, but it is not fair. In bidding systems you have the gangbidding and tactics involved. Zero-sum systems favour heavily those veterans who raid from the very beginning of the guild.(I can dig up the reasons too, but it's basically that it is faster to regain spent dkp in the beginning when everyone takes items compared to the stages when most of stuff get's sharded)

ToA being the friendly neigbourhood rp, pvp & raiding guild, free rolling is probably the thing most inline with the philosophy. Yes, it will take you longer to reach next tier of instances and you will have people leeching of items. But you will get there the way you planned and promised people when they joined the guild.

Now, feel free to ban me for posting this progression-crap on your forums

[dara]

Just a quick addition

Free rolling is actually the most fair way. There everyone present get's equal chance on loot. Higher attendance gives you mathematically higher chance on loot as you are there more when loot is rolled on.

However, the thing is that you really don't want the system to be completely fair. You want to have people being able to build themselves minor priviledges as it helps you to keep those often more valuable players(as they have the gear and they know your tactics like the back of their hands). So, small unbalance is good. Naturally it can't be anything drastic as it would be system breaking

[Gizmo]

DKP would be good to start with in Karazhan, gives incentive for people to turn up. Once most of us are geared up, I think we can safely drop it in favour of free rolling.

I'm not a huge fan of DKP, but I can see the benefits. And there's nothing stopping the system from being scrapped or changed if it isn't working out.

[arckan]

I agree with gizmoo. Also you'll be doing random rolling in the beginning mostly since everyone will have same dkp first couple of runs . But I would really like some form of DKP, my rolling isn't too good in general and I think I deserve an item for going on 20 runs while Pete has only done a single run.

DAMN I HATE YOU PETE!!!

[Taelus]

I dont know much about DKP, but well no. 2 seems best, imo